De-Risking Real Estate Projects With Tax Credits, With Cullan Maumus

The nation’s housing shortage presents an opportunity to convert historic buildings into multifamily. But doing so comes with risk.

Cullan Maumus, managing director at NORF Companies, joins the show to discuss how tax credit programs (in addition to Opportunity Zones) can de-risk historic building conversion projects.

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Episode Highlights

  • How Historic Tax Credits can pair with Opportunity Zones to convert historic buildings.
  • The bull case for real estate redevelopment in east Texas and Louisiana.
  • How interest rate hikes have impacted the composition of capital stacks for real estate deals.
  • How the Opportunity Zone tax incentive has helped NORF build in areas that they likely would not have otherwise.
  • Trends unfolding in the industrial real estate industry.

Featured On Today’s Episode

Guest: Cullan Maumus, NORF Companies

About The Opportunity Zones & Private Equity Show

Hosted by OpportunityDb and WealthChannel founder Jimmy Atkinson, The Opportunity Zones & Private Equity Show features guest interviews from fund managers, advisors, policymakers, tax professionals, and other foremost experts in Opportunity Zones and the broader private equity landscape.

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Show Transcript

Jimmy: Welcome to “The Opportunity Zones & Private Equity Show.” I’m Jimmy Atkinson. As many of my viewers and listeners know, there’s a housing shortage that we’re experiencing in this country, all over the country, and in many particular geographic locations as well. But what if a lot of older buildings that are underused or have gone unused for a while can be converted to multi-family? That’ll form part of our discussion today that I’m having with my guest, Cullan Maumus, who is the managing director at NORF Companies. And Cullan joins us today from New Orleans, Louisiana. Cullan, it’s great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show today.

Cullan: Jimmy, thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.

Jimmy: Absolutely, Cullan. So, to start us off, NORF Companies, you guys have been involved with Opportunity Zones for a few years now. I’m guessing probably some of our audience of high-net-worth investors and advisors may have some familiarity with NORF or have heard your name. But for those who aren’t familiar with you and your firm, can you give us a brief introduction to the firm NORF Companies, and what is your role there, Cullan?

Cullan: Sure thing. Well, I appreciate it again. So, my name is Cullan Maumus. I am the managing director here with NORF Companies. We were founded in 2013, really with a focus in New Orleans of, you know, rehabilitating blighted properties, really, that were left over since Hurricane Katrina, and redeveloping those, and improving the city’s housing stock. In 2018, when the Jobs and Tax Act came out, we realized that about 85% of our portfolio that we had worked on previously would’ve qualified in Qualified Opportunity Zones, and we decided to go ahead and launch an Opportunity Zone fund.

We had a couple of private equity funds that we’d set up previously. And one thing about the legislation, we realized that, you know, nobody else could say that they were experts except for the people who had written the legislation. So we figured that we would be able to be on the forefront of that. We’re on our third Opportunity Zone fund now. We’ve raised, you know, three funds. We’re in the process of raising our third fund.

But really, our, you know, bread and butter of the fund is deploying the capital into secondary, tertiary markets. We do have investments in New Orleans, we have investments in Houston. Really, our primary focus is secondary markets in the South. And we typically look for overlapping and marrying kind of the Opportunity Zone incentives, or Opportunity Zone program, with other incentives, like historic tax credits, other, you know, tax-advantaged strategies as well.

Jimmy: Yeah, I think that’s one of the things that makes what you’re doing somewhat unique among Opportunity Zone developers, Qualified Opportunity Funds, is the vast majority of QOFS that are doing real estate are doing ground-up construction, because, frankly, it’s very difficult to take an older building and rehabilitate it cost-effectively and being able to achieve for, you know, I’m gonna throw out a compliance term right now, substantial improvement. It’s very difficult to double the basis in buildings oftentimes, but in certain areas of the country, and I think Louisiana, New Orleans certainly is one of those areas where you can take older buildings, get them at low cost, and pretty easily achieve substantial improvement. And, you know, as you mentioned, it also allows you to stack other tax incentive, most notably historic tax credits, which you guys have been doing for quite a while, long before Opportunity Zones even… Can you talk about how often you’re able to do that? How often are you buying up older buildings and stacking HTC credits into those types of projects?

Cullan: Absolutely. You know, as a company, I think we’ve probably done over 50 historic tax credit projects in the last 10 years. And, you know, one of the great things about marrying Opportunity Zone investments with historic tax credits is that, you know, for the historic tax credit program, you also have a substantial renovation threshold that you have to be able to meet. So, there has to be a substantial improvement based on the basis that you have into the project. Another thing that we really like about, you know, combining the historic tax credits with the Opportunity Zone, it’s just the timing. So, you know, if we are looking to hold an asset, not that we have to hold a specific asset for 10 years, but say we do, just to maximize the return for the OZ, and, you know, not have to, you know, reinvest funds according to compliance.

You know, it’s similar in timing from what we have to do for the earned historic tax credit in full compliance. So, from the time we acquire a building for a historic tax credit project, you know, by the time we acquire it, go through pre-development and redevelopment and plans, you might be two years before we break ground, or a year before we break ground. Might be another year in construction. So we’re two years in total. Once we place the building into service, there’s a five-year hold on that project, to keep it, to make sure it meets all the compliance standards for historic tax credits.

So, in total, we’re invested in the project for seven years anyway. So, when we can overlap, you know, a historic tax credit project in an Opportunity Zone, and really only have a requirement that we hold that asset for another three years in order to fully maximize the return, you know, when we’re talking about Opportunities Zones, and Qualified Opportunities Zone investments, for us, it’s actually a really great combination of the two. And, you know, we don’t, you know, avoid other projects where we can acquire land at a compelling base on land, and we can, you know, build new construction, but we’ve just seen the historic tax credits and what it does for the capital stack, de-risking projects, just is a great way for us to find, you know, great assets for us to invest in.

Jimmy: Now, the geography that you’re in, your projects are almost exclusively in Louisiana. You’ve got a few in Tyler, Texas as well, which is, well, I’m in Fort Worth. That’s way out in East Texas. It’s practically Louisiana. What do you like about that area of the country? What’s your investment thesis behind why you’re bullish on that geographic region for real estate development and rehabilitation?

Cullan: Absolutely. You know, one of the main drivers that we see when we’re looking at markets is really the inflow of population. You know, I don’t think it’s a secret of what’s happened with Texas over the last, you know, 15, 20 years, but, you know, in the middle of COVID, I asked a couple of our analysts to really do some market research. You know, we have these fancy subscriptions to different data analysis software, and, you know, I said, “Hey, let’s find some markets that may be underinvested in, and let’s see if we can find a couple of diamonds in the rough.” Within a week, you know, I had one of my analysts came back, said, “Look, I don’t know a whole lot about Tyler, Texas, but we need to look at it.” And, you know, what we saw was, you know, median income that was at or above the, you know, median incomes for the surrounding cities.

We saw a population where it was one of two populations in Texas where actually the average age is coming down. So, it’s going down, showing kind of new families and young professionals moving into the market. And also it had a projected, you know, increase in population that was just staggering. And we started doing some research, and it turned out there was a new medical school going into the city. And then, as we started having kind of more conversations and on a subjective feedback, it just became apparent that it was a market that we really wanted to be in. We started, you know, really digging in. We saw that the Opportunity Zone was really over most of the city, and that the downtown of Tyler, which had a number of really beautiful historic buildings that were just underinvested, under-utilized, and some of ’em were abandoned, that downtown was actually gonna be being placed into a historic district, a federal historic district within the next, you know, year.

And so, we started identifying properties down there. We were able to acquire four of them, and we’re converting them right now. And over the next year and a half, we should be investing about $100 million into the downtown. That’s one of the things about Opportunity Zones that we really, you know, are proud of, you know, is just the impact that the Opportunity Zone, you know, investments are making. You know, I know for a while, there was some skepticism on what the program was gonna do, but we’re seeing specifically in some of these secondary markets, you know, it’s allowing us to make investments that wouldn’t necessarily have happened were it not for the Opportunity Zones, and you know overlap with other, you know, incentives as well.

Jimmy: So, I wanna talk about how you’re stacking some of those other tax incentives with OZ equity as you form your capital stack in a couple minutes here, but you mentioned a couple of examples of what you’re working on in Tyler. What are some other projects that you’ve worked on so far, whether in Tyler, or elsewhere in Texas or Louisiana? What are some projects that you’ve done that you’re most proud of?

Cullan: Yeah, I would say, you know, probably the one that I’m most proud of right now is the former Warwick Hotel in downtown New Orleans. It’s a conversion of a former hotel. There’s across from City Hall, downtown New Orleans, about 130,000 square feet. You know, it had sat there vacant ever since Hurricane Katrina. We had, you know, driven by the property, you know, looked at it a number of times up until we acquired it back in 2018. And it just really hadn’t made sense for us to acquire it until the QOZF legislation came around and we had some more investors who came to bear, who said they were really interested in the project.

And so, once we were able to do that, I think the doors opened up for that project to be able to happen and be successful. We converted the old hotel, about 130,000 square feet, into 154 apartments that are master leased by Tulane University, for their medical school, and traveling professors, students, and affiliated tenants. And then the ground floor that has a new restaurant that’s down there, it has a innovation institute. So, it’s also something that has, you know, helped a large university, but really kind of put a foothold downtown New Orleans, and it’s been something that is also just a great building, a great addition to the downtown, you know, fabric.

Jimmy: No, that’s great. And did I understand you correctly, the Opportunity Zone legislation kind of helped you unlock the development of that project there?

Cullan: Absolutely, 100%. So, we had looked at the project, again, just from the historic tax credit standpoint, for years, and just couldn’t get over the acquisition ask that the owners had. And once the, you know, Opportunity Zone investors, you know, realized that this was in an Opportunity Zone, I think people were a little bit more interested and compelled to actually come and invest in the project. And it didn’t take long for us to identify investors who wanted to, you know, partner on this, and we were able to make it happen.

Jimmy: See, I think that’s great. You know, I hear a narrative against the Opportunity Zone program goes something like this, that, you know, these incentives are lining the pockets of developers and investors when they would’ve probably already done these projects anyway, but what you’re telling me runs counter to that. This was a project you wanted to get done, but you just couldn’t quite get it to pencil. And then the QOF legislation comes along, you’re able to finally get the equity in, that makes sense, makes the numbers make sense. And as a result, you’ve, you know, increased the number of housing units where, as I mentioned in the intro, we’re desperately in need of more housing in this country, so I think that’s a great example of OZs living up to their promise, and doing the good that they were meant to do.

Cullan: Absolutely. And I can say without a doubt that this project would not have happened were it not for the Qualified Opportunity Zone that was placed over downtown New Orleans that allowed us to bring in Opportunity Zone investors, so, it was great.

Jimmy: Yeah, I love those examples of that. Thanks for sharing that. Maybe I’ll ask you for a few more toward the end of the episode here. But let’s get back to the fact that you guys focus on tax-advantaged strategies to get your projects done. You’re stacking a number of incentives, oftentimes, federal and local incentives. Couple that with the Opportunity Zones initiative, and you’ve really got a pretty unique capital stack on some of these projects that really help you get the capital that you need. In addition to historic tax credits, what other tax strategies are you using, or credit programs are you using, either federal or local?

Cullan: The 179D and 45L deductions, those are projects that are, or deductions that we will use if they’re new construction or if they’re, you know, projects that are not earning historic tax credits. We typically work with local governments for, you know, local incentives, whether it be restoration tax abatements, we’re able to freeze property taxes, or, you know, different types of agreements with local governments for, you know, reimbursement of fees or, you know, in Texas, a number of 380 agreements that we’re able to form with local cities, 381 agreements we’re able to form with counties.

There’s some agreements that we’re able to enter into to help abate some of the taxes moving forward. And, you know, we’ve just found a number of the local governments, particularly in some of these smaller markets, have been eager, and a little bit more aggressive in being able to facilitate some of these, and helping us, you know, make some of these projects that, again, would not have been possible were it not for the Opportunity Zone legislation. I think the local governing bodies are starting to realize, just with a little bit extra assistance, these projects are really feasible.

Jimmy: So, I don’t wanna get too technical or turn this into a masterclass on different tax incentives, but you’ve piqued my interest a little bit. I’m hoping you can shed some light on some of the alphabet soup and numbers that you threw at us. 179D, I think you mentioned. 45L was it? And 381, and then TIRZ. Can you walk us through what each one of those is, very briefly? And I know we could probably go into the weeds and talk about this stuff for an hour, but what’s 179D? Maybe start there.

Cullan: So, that … the 179D and the 45L are basically just deductions that you’re able to take through doing a cost segregation analysis. So, you’re not just traditionally depreciating the assets according to a commercial or residential depreciation, but you’re able to bonus depreciate and you’re able to take additional deductions based on the square footage of the building or the number of units. And a lot of that has been updated with the recent tax code, or with the recent legislation for energy efficiency with the federal government. And, you know, one of the greatest things about…you know, one of the great things, I won’t say greatest, but one of the great things about Opportunities Zone investment, particularly when it relates to real estate, is just that that depreciation’s not recaptured. So, any ability that we can to take additional deductions, take bonus depreciation at the front end, really helps us to maximize the investment. And so, that’s great.

The TIRZ and the 380 and 381 agreements really are just, you know, different incentives that are, I think, held by the state, by the local governing bodies, whether it be county or city, that basically help reimburse or help you with property taxes. If you’re going to renovate properties that are historic or are gonna have a benefit and a greater benefit for the town, the county, they’re able to provide additional incentives through those programs that help you, in lieu of increased property taxes, basically. They either rebating the taxes or they’re able to help you freeze them.

And again, you know, we focus on historic tax credits and that, you know, depending on what state you’re in, you can get a 20%, you know, credit based on your qualified rehabilitation cost for the federal side, and you can also get a 20% to 25% credit from the state credits as well, based on your qualified rehabilitation credits. So, you know, by the end of the day, when you stack all these, you know, the equity that you actually need to come to the project is quite low, comparatively to what other projects we may have been looking at, either if it’s ground-up and not taking advantage of some of these tax credits, or if we were just, you know, again, doing it without the tax credits.

Jimmy: No, I think that’s great. So, it sounds like, I guess, in addition to Opportunity Zones, three different types of, or at least I like to bucket them, just kind of thinking out loud here, into three different buckets. The federal tax credits or historic tax credits you can go after, and then federal tax depreciation benefits that you can take advantage of. Cost segregation. By the way, we did a really interesting episode on cost segregation and how it can relate to Opportunity Zones with a previous podcast episode that I did with Plante Moran just a few weeks ago. I’ll be sure to link to that in the show notes for today’s episode. And then that third bucket, I think, is the local tax incentives, which I think is really smart by the economic development groups within these different localities. If they’re trying to attract different developers in, sometimes you gotta dangle a carrot to get them there and to make sure that the numbers make sense for them and their investors, so I think you’re taking advantage of some different tax increment… Financing, is that the T-I in T-I-R-Z, TIRZ? Tax Increment something something?

Cullan: Correct. That’s it.

Jimmy: Okay. Good stuff. Well, I think also that stuff helps you in regards to interest rate hikes. We’ve experienced a rapid increase in interest rates from the Fed over the last 12 months or so here. How have you been impacted by those interest rate hikes, and how have these different tax incentives and different tax credits that you’re using in capital stack kind of help offset the impact of interest rate hikes?

Cullan: Well, personally, I think it’s helped me lose some more hair up top, because it’s a few more sleepless nights, and just trying to make sure that we can get some of these projects refinanced, or get ’em through construction financing. But really, I mean, it’s been something we’ve had to stay on top of, and I think anybody in the real estate industry has been, over this last year, year and a half, and just understanding that this was bound to happen at some point or another. But the pace at which these interest rate hikes have come really have affected, you know, I think, plans for construction on some of them, on some of the projects that we’re working on, and other projects that we’re seeing in the pipeline, and also even projects that are complete and just looking at refinances. I mean, those have been interesting as well.

Yeah, it’s been an interesting case study. I mean, honestly, whether good or bad, it’s been fascinating to see what it does. And in terms of us, our strategy, you know, I would say, compared to where we were a year ago, we’re probably a lot more heavily weighted putting equity into projects, which I think is an opportunity for Opportunity Zone funds, in that I think there’s more space for equity to go into projects. You know, where before, we may have been looking to finance projects 65% to 70% loan-to-value, I think now we’re shooting closer to 50-50 in some scenarios. And I would say we’re doing that, one, you know, we have the benefit of the tax credits, and in fact, with tax credits, sometimes we can be below 50% debt-to-value on a loan. A traditional, you know, loan.

But at the same time also, just the cost of debt. I mean, really, the cost of debt and equity are getting so close to each other. You know, previously if you went into a project 50-50, the difference between your returns would be, you know, pretty significant. Relatively, compared to that, I think now when you’re looking at a difference between the pricing on debt and equity, it’s a lot closer than it was, and so it makes the ability to bring in, you know, more equity, you know, a lot more palatable, and, you know, something that we’re starting to do as a company.

Jimmy: The interest rates certainly aren’t as low as they used to be. It’s really increased that cost of debt over the last 12 months or so. Pretty rapid change. You’re not alone in terms of, you know, how the capital stacks have had to change. What else would you say makes you unique? You know, we talked about how you’re not doing a lot of ground-up. You’re doing substantial improvement on a lot of older buildings. I think that’s one aspect that makes you unique. What are some other aspects that make NORF Companies unique?

Cullan: I would say, and I hate to tell people vertically integrate, because we’re not vertically integrated, but I’d say we’re vertically associated. One of our partners, our managing partner, Alex Hernandez, is also president and CEO of a general contracting company here. And we also have an affiliated architectural firm that we work with regularly, and have worked with throughout the history of our company, Albert Architecture, based here in New Orleans. You know, when you’re dealing with these type of, you know, the timing constraints on, you know, investors placing capital on Opportunity Zones, additionally, you know, timing constraints of Opportunity Zones, placing capital on the projects, you know, timing’s important.

And for us, with our affiliation with these companies, we’re able to vet projects relatively quickly. You know, we’re able to do a lot of the tax credit work in-house. We’re able to get our cost estimates done quickly in-house, and we’re able to get kind of schematics and design drawings done. Typically, these are able to be done during our due diligence phase, so that we are able to, you know, give ourselves a go/no-go relatively quickly, as opposed to maybe some other, you know, groups that, you know, maybe outsourcing some of these, and maybe be a little bit more constrained by other’s schedules. You know, we’re able to kind of rush these things through if we need to. And it’s created a process for us that we have, we trust, and we believe in, and it’s brought us to some projects that we really like.

Jimmy: Right on. You know what? I think it seems obvious to me what attracted you to the Opportunity Zones program. You were already building, or rehabilitating a lot of these buildings in these areas, for probably several years before OZs came into existence when the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was passed at the end of 2017. You mentioned that one example of what you did in downtown New Orleans with the Warwick Hotel, being able to convert that into multi-family housing, which would not have been possible but for the Opportunity Zone tax incentive. I’m hoping you can share a few more stories. Do you have any other examples of how the Opportunity Zone incentive has helped you build in areas that you may not have otherwise, or has it helped you build more quickly or get projects done where otherwise you would not have been able to?

Cullan: Yeah, you know, I would say definitely the program has incentivized us to expand probably regionally faster than we would’ve expanded previously. Once we, you know, saw the impact that it had, you know, the equity and the investors that were interested in placing capital into projects, and we saw the impact that, you know, these overlapping of credits and then kind of the synergies that were there between the historic tax credits and Opportunity Zone program, we really went out regionally looking for opportunities. And so, like we mentioned, we settled on, you know, Tyler for our first, you know, three projects or four projects that we’ve gone outside of town with, and we have one in downtown Houston right now that we’re working on as well. And I could say, you know, definitely we would not have been, you know, moving as quickly regionally had it not been for that.

I would also say, different types of asset classes that we’re looking at, I think that, you know, we, for a while had been doing some mixed-use, multifamily, mixed-use, kind of, retail, ground-level retail, ground-level commercial. We really believe in just the need for housing. I agree with you, what you were saying, and it is definitely one of the larger needs, particularly in kind of our more urban areas. And whether it’s a secondary, you know, city, tertiary city, or kind of a primary city, we still see kind of the same needs that, you know, quality, affordable housing, whether it be workforce housing, whether it be market rate, it’s still needed. And we feel like we’ve been able to identify assets and, through adaptive reuse, either turn those into apartments or take, you know, old apartments and just renovate those, making sure that we’re able to hit substantial improvement thresholds that are needed.

Jimmy: Sure. I can imagine that OZs have helped you unlock a lot of projects that you weren’t able to do. You were able to expand regionally a little bit faster. What about any challenges? Have there been any challenges that you’ve faced with regards to utilizing the Opportunity Zone incentive for your projects?

Cullan: You know, one challenge that we had that was unexpected was, you know, utilization of some of the deductions and tax credits. Utilizing those that are beyond kind of the basis of an individual’s investment in the Opportunity Zone’s fund. And we’ve been able to … through time when we generate tax liability. But, you know, some of these tax credits are being generated even before some of our Qualified Opportunity Zone investors are really realizing their basis of their investment, because they haven’t, naturally, you know, realized that investment, the basis in the fund. And so that’s been one challenge that we’ve worked through.

And, you know, I think another one has just been, you know, for a period of time, finding projects was really tough. It seemed like if anything was in an Opportunity Zone hitting the market, it seemed like those projects were getting scooped up quickly, or the expectation on the pricing on them, just because they were in an Opportunity Zone, maybe were inflated with a premium of cost 15%, 20%, 30%, to a point that really made those projects infeasible. But, you know, as things have been, you know, the market’s changing a little bit, we’re starting to see quite a few opportunities that are, you know, coming back around, and, you know, we’re excited. You know, I think, you know, maybe the tough market conditions maybe open up some opportunities across the board for us to really be able to deploy capital and develop some interesting projects.

Jimmy: So, NORF has been around for a while. You guys predate Opportunity Zones. You guys have been around for, I think, 10-plus years. I’m curious, who is your capital base? Who are your investors, and has that group changed as you’ve done more OZ deals at all?

Cullan: So, I would say high-net-worth individuals. We have, you know, had a few family offices invest in this as well, some institutional capital. And interestingly, there have been, you know, a number of, call it, doctor groups, physician groups, who have been, you know, acquired recently that we’ve had, you know, the fortune of having them come into our funds as investors. And primarily through the retail channels, I mean, we’ve had, you know, just traditional high-net-worth individuals coming through.

Jimmy: Good stuff, Cullan. It’s been great talking with you today. We’re starting to run out of time. We really appreciate all of the Opportunity Zone knowledge and the historic tax credit knowledge that you’ve provided for us today. NORF doing some really great stuff. You guys have been around for a decade-plus, doing different real estate developments and real estate rehabilitation, I should say. Given all that, where do you see the markets going today? Where do you see the opportunity in the market, or what are some of the most powerful trends that you see unfolding over the next few years in the broader real estate industry?

Cullan: Yeah, you know, one thing that I can see on the immediate horizon, and something that we’ve been looking at, and actually a couple projects we’re working on now, is, you know, potentially the conversion of, you know call it motels, old hotels, into maybe apartments. You know, as we’re looking at timing, I spoke about timing, you’re talking about cost of debt, cost of capital, we’re seeing it beneficial to look at trying to get projects back into commerce quickly, that we’re not holding construction loans for 12 to 14 months. Things that we can acquire, maybe turn back around, meeting that substantial improvement threshold, call it in a, you know, three to four-month process, maybe six-month process, and be able to get these things turned around quickly, as opposed to having to go through a year of planning, and then, you know, 12, 14 months of construction, and then a full leased-up period.

I mean, we’re thinking that we can get some of these products back online relatively quickly, and we think that’ll help us with the velocity, and being able to place capital that we have with us. And as we were speaking, I think some of these asset classes that we’re looking at would probably be less capital-intensive on the total project costs, so we can afford to go more heavily equity into the project and, you know, hopefully, the terms that we’d be able to realize on the back end, where we can refinance the projects, maybe they would be still favorable. But I think that’s one that we’re gonna look at, projects that maybe need a little bit less of value-add.

And I also think that, you know, I’ve seen some of the other podcasts that you have, different asset classes. You know, we continue to be intrigued by industrial. We have a few warehouses that we look, wide industrial. I see some opportunity there. You know, whether it be small, secondary, tertiary markets, or even primary cities, I think the local governing bodies and the, you know, business communities do need a lot of industrial development there. And so we’ve seen, through some of the communications that we’ve had with just different bodies, that there are potential additional incentives for industrial development, and some opportunities there. So we’re looking for opportunities now, and potentially that’ll be an area of growth for us moving forward.

Jimmy: I agree. A lot of positive trends for the industrial asset class, certainly. Hey, Cullan, thanks so much again for sharing your insights today. Before I let you go, if anyone in our audience of high-net-worth investors or advisors wanna learn more about you or your investment opportunities at NORF, where can they go to learn more, find out some more information?

Cullan: Sure thing. You can go to our website,, You know, there’ll be a link, you can send us an email, and, you know, we’re happy to, you know, respond quickly to any inquiries or any questions that people may have. Something that we work with as well, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we don’t say that we’re experts. We like to help, you know, we like to extend help and helping hands. And so we frequently find ourselves, you know, just helping just other investors just kind of evaluate the Opportunity Zone program as well, because we really are a believer in the program, what it can do. And, you know, I think the proof is in the pudding in some of the projects that we have, and others that we’ve seen happening around the country. So…

Jimmy: Absolutely. Well said, Cullan. And I’ll make sure to link to NORF in the show notes for today’s episode, which my listeners and viewers can find, as always, on our website, at And please be sure to subscribe to us on YouTube or your favorite podcast listening platform to always get the latest episode. Cullan, again, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Cullan: Thank you, Jimmy. I really appreciate your time.


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