Opportunity Zones For Wealth And Tax Strategy, With Brian Duren

Opportunity Zones can be a powerful tool in wealth creation and wealth preservation. The tax benefit has the ability to compound, which not only preserves but creates wealth.

Brian Duren, signing director at CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA), joins the show to discuss the Opportunity Zone lifecycle, and the role that the unique tax benefits of OZ investing can play in wealth planning.

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Episode Highlights

  • How Opportunity Zone investing fits into the wealth management and tax planning services that CLA offers its high net worth clients.
  • How the unique compounding effect of Opportunity Zone tax benefits can be a powerful tool in wealth creation and wealth preservation.
  • Financial modeling: the impact that the Opportunity Zone tax incentive can have on after-tax returns.
  • Why it’s crucial to have a tax advisor and wealth advisor in the same conversation when planning an investment into a Qualified Opportunity Fund.
  • The impact that interest rate hikes, inflation, and the equities markets downturn are having on Opportunity Zone funds and investors.

Today’s Guests: Brian Duren, CliftonLarsonAllen

Brian Duren on the Opportunity Zones Podcast

About The Opportunity Zones Podcast

Hosted by OpportunityDb.com founder Jimmy Atkinson, The Opportunity Zones Podcast features guest interviews from fund managers, advisors, policymakers, tax professionals, and other foremost experts in opportunity zones.

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Show Transcript

Jimmy: Welcome to “The Opportunity Zones Podcast.” I’m Jimmy Atkinson. Joining the show today is Brian Duren, signing director at CliftonLarsonAllen, a professional services firm with wealth advisory and tax planning services. They have offices nationwide. Brian normally is based in Minneapolis, but today he joins us from London, England. Brian, how are you doing today?

Brian: I’m doing fantastic, Jimmy. Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Jimmy: You bet, Brian, thanks for joining. So this is CliftonLarsonAllen’s or we’ll call that firm CLA for the rest of the episode. This is CLA’s first time appearing on “The Opportunity Zones Podcast” or on the OpportunityDb platform in any fashion. So, can you give me and our listeners and viewers some background on CLA as a professional services firm? And how do Opportunity Zones fit into the overall picture of what CLA provides for your clients?

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Brian: Yeah, thanks again, Jimmy. I think we’re the proverbial longtime listener, first-time caller, into the show. We’re a big fan of what you do and how you advocate for OZs across the country. So, thanks again for the opportunity to present with you here today and talk about something that we’re really passionate about as a firm.

So, as Jimmy said, CLA is a professional services firm that has service lines across a lot of different platforms. Principally, we have a traditional CPA practice tax consulting and assurance, we have outsourced accounting, and we have a very significant wealth advisory practice with about 10 billion in assets under management. Those are retail-type clients that we manage funds for in a fiduciary basis.

And one of the things that makes us unique in the OZ space is because, through our different service lines, which include M&A on the transaction advisory side, and the investment side under our wealth advisory platform, we get to see a 360-degree view of Opportunity Zones that originates with capital gains as we all know.

And our clients that are, you know, sort of the baby boomer generation are selling their businesses, they have large capital gains. We also have capital gains that are realized through our private investment platform under our wealth advisory group there. And then with our tax practice, we see a lot of capital gains come through from multiple sources.

And so we’ve strategically designed ourselves to be in a role where we can advise clients from beginning to end through the OZ lifecycle. And so we have a number of Qualified Opportunity Funds on our private platform that are available to our retail investors. We have a great network of relationships with family offices and other capital aggregators and investors throughout the country, all being channeled into our wealth advisory practice.

But then, of course, our tax function plays a critical role in the OZ space because one of my roles…and I am a CPA, I’m not a wealth advisor. So, I wanna explain that upfront that I’m not a wealth advisor. But my role as a CPA, one of those is to lead our firm’s Opportunity Zone working group. And what that involves is supporting the OZ footprint that our firm has established and continues to grow in for the Opportunity Funds, the Qualified Opportunity Zone Businesses, and the investors in the space.

We work with anywhere between 300 and 400 QOFs and QOZBs, and hundreds, if not thousands of investors that have entered the OZ space as a stakeholder. You know, over the course of the last few years since the program has been generated, we’ve developed a footprint that we estimate is somewhere around 2 billion or a little over in terms of the total investment that’s been made into OZs. And so we’ve seen the attraction that our clients are paying to it, and we’ve similarly invested a great deal of human resources and technical expertise into the space.

Jimmy: It seems like it fits perfectly into the professional services that your firm provides. And you can point your clients in the right direction no matter where they’re coming from in your web of services you provide, whether they’re coming from M&A, or from tax planning, or from wealth advisory, there may be some direction incorporating Opportunity Zones that you can point those clients in.

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A large part of what I wanna talk with you about now, Brian, for the next few minutes is Opportunity Zones as part of a wealth and tax strategy, or wealth planning, or tax planning strategy. Opportunity Zones, you and I were talking about them just before we hit the record button. You said they could really be a very powerful tool in wealth preservation but also in wealth creation. And of course, there’s a tax strategy component to that as well. How do you illustrate to clients what Opportunity Zones can do in those regards?

Brian: So, thanks, that’s a great point to highlight, Jimmy. We’ve been a big advocate that private investments are a great part of a portfolio for any investor. And so I work alongside of our wealth advisors to be seamless with clients so that they understand as they’re building their portfolio, what the tax implications are of that portfolio. So, we do a lot of private placements on our platform, both OZ and non-OZ.

But specifically with OZ because of the fact that the tax benefit has an ability to compound and create this tax-free return over time, it really has the ability to not only preserve but create wealth as part of an integrated tax and financial plan.

And what I mean by that is when you compare an OZ deal versus a non-OZ deal, the non-OZ deal has to be funded with after-tax investment cash. And in an OZ deal, you essentially take that tax that you would otherwise pay, and you’re able to defer recognition of it on your income tax return, and then invest it.

So, by investing that deferred tax, the first major benefit or group of benefits is you get this additional amount that has the ability to compound alongside your original after-tax investment. So, investing pre-tax has this compounding effect. But then also, when you invest in that way, you unlock the tax-free benefits on the back end after 10 years. So, there is the deferral period until 2026 as we know.

But then, really, the biggest benefit in the OZ program comes at the end, after 10 years when you have the ability to step up your basis to fair market value and pay no tax on gains. So, it’s a wealth creator as well as a wealth preserver.

Jimmy: Yeah, that first point that you made I think gets lost sometimes, that ability to compound additional money upfront. I’ll usually use an example of something like, you have a $100,000 gain. Typically, if you’re doing a non-OZ deal, that $100,000 gain after you pay state and federal taxes, it can be eroded down to, you know, somewhere between, let’s say, $70,000 to $77,000 roughly in that range, give or take, right?

So, you’re putting $70 to $70,000 into the next investment, that’s just less money that’s gonna compound over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, or however long that you keep the investment for. With OZs, you get to put the full $100,000 to work right away. That’s just additional amount of money that gets to compound for a longer and longer period of time. It can add quite a bit to the after-tax return.

So, I know you guys do a lot of financial modeling for your clients. Typically, when we’re talking about the after-tax effects on returns, if you’re comparing an OZ deal to a non-OZ deal, all else being equal, on average, what do you see as the impact of OZ investing on returns?

Brian: So, that’s really the biggest piece that our seamless services can add value to a consultation with a client. Because the before-tax returns, whether you’re investing with pre or post-tax money, should be identical. You’re getting into the same deal, you’re just getting a smaller slice of that deal.

But the after-tax returns that we help our wealth advisors illustrate, you know, by investing that deferred tax, and then gaining the tax-free benefits over the back end, our modeling that we’ve done on significant number of projects, on average, I’d say there’s generally about a 500 basis point increase in the overall 10-year annualized IRR from an after-tax non-OZ deal to an after-tax OZ deal. And that translates anywhere from, you know, one to one and a half on the equity multiple.

And so it’s enormously compounding when you think about the tax benefits of the OZ deal giving you a higher return than in a non-OZ deal. And a lot of ways that investments are sometimes underwritten in a non-OZ environment, the traditional investing, it’s looking at pre-tax. And the tax obligations or the tax benefits that come from that private investment, you know, are really left to the tax advisors to analyze and assess. But for OZ projects and investments, we come right alongside with the wealth advisors to illustrate these hugely important benefits of investing in OZ.

Jimmy: Yeah, it is crucial, right? Because you’re absolutely right that there’s so much of a tax component that goes into what makes the returns happen for Opportunity Zone investors. And you said to me before we came on the air here, Brian, that’s why it’s so crucial to have that tax advisor and the wealth advisor participating in the same conversation with the client. I don’t know if you had anything else to add there.

Brian: Yeah, absolutely. The seamless effect of building a team around an OZ strategy is crucial. You know, they have to fit within a well-crafted financial plan, but the tax implications need to be understood very detailed. And, you know, just like I don’t try to be a wealth advisor, our wealth advisors don’t try to be tax professionals, although we both know enough to bring each other into the fold and build that solid team around our clients. And that’s the we have…

Jimmy: You know enough to be dangerous.

Brian: Yeah, exactly. We both know enough to be dangerous in each other’s space. But yeah, the well-crafted team is critical.

Jimmy: Knowing enough to be dangerous. I like to describe my expertise on this topic in that regard oftentimes as well. But then I need to go in and bring in a Brian or somebody like that who really knows like the back of their hand, all of the tax implications of Opportunity Zone deals and deal structuring and investing.

Well, let’s move on to our next big topic that we wanted to cover today, Brian, which was the macro view of what’s going on with our economy lately, and how those macroeconomic conditions or trends are impacting Opportunity Zone deal-making, Opportunity Zone transactions, Opportunity Zone investing.

So, you know, the first topic we can cover right now with respect to macro are interest rates. Interest rates are going up and they’re going up rapidly at unprecedented rates or unprecedented in my lifetime at least. The amount that they’ve gone up over the last several meetings of the FOMC, they’ve raised them another 75 basis points a few weeks back. And interest rates today are much, much higher than they were even just four or five months ago.

What impact has that had on…? And I think we’re gonna talk about the impact that’s had on a variety of things. But firstly, you wanted to cover the impact that that has on penalty calculations for failing QOFs because the penalties on QOFs are actually tied to a variable interest rate. Can you explain that?

Brian: Yeah. Then that’s a really important part that should not be overlooked in the OZ space. And we take a macro topic like interest rates, which is an easy one to analyze on some of the deal fundamentals.

But we can’t forget that the IRS has many different interest rates that it uses that are tied to a variable rate. And so whenever the baseline rate in the country rises, so do all of these other rates. And specifically, with OZ, the underpayment rate that is used has essentially doubled over the last year.

And so there’s a couple of important points to consider. The first being that through 2021, we had the pandemic relief that was in the most recent IRS notice 2021-10 provided essentially free penalty relief for many QOFs through the end of 2021. So, you were not penalized by failing to meet your 90% investment standard.

There was absolute recognition that the pandemic caused delays in deploying capital, and so there was relief granted deemed to be reasonable cause. You could have just been sitting on the cash not doing anything and you were still free of penalties. That relief ended in 2021. And so now throughout the calendar year of 2022, the penalty regime under the regulations are back in full effect again.

But not only are they in effect, but the interest rate that they’re tied to rises. And so this underpayment rate, which sat at 3% at the end of 2021, has slowly started to tick up through the course of the year. And now for the fourth quarter of 2022, that same rate is already at 6%. So, it’s effectively doubled the cost for a failing QOF.

And so there’s even more greater incentive now for QOFs that have been delayed in deploying capital to find those deals to get invested in so that they can avoid this unnecessary financial cost to their investors. And so we just can’t forget about the significance of a penalty rate that’s tied to this variable interest rate.

Jimmy: Right. And at the same time, I think maybe the market for finding deals has gotten a little bit tighter as values have risen and transactions have slowed down a little bit. So, that’s also somewhat concerning there. But yeah, good to point out that the penalties are back and they’re double what you may have thought they were a year ago.

Well, let’s talk about how interest rates have also had an impact on…a lot of these QOF pro formas had modeled in a cash-out refinance oftentimes prior to the end of 2026 so that the investors could pay their tax bill that comes due in ’27 when the gain is recognized at the end of ’26.

But with interest rates having gone up so much, those expectations of being able to do a cash-out refinance, converting the construction loan into permanent debt upon assets stabilization, how has that impacted a QOF’s operation? And I know you also wanted to talk about how, you know, if the QOFs want to just accelerate when they do the cash-out refinance sooner rather than later, that they may run into an issue of what’s termed a disguised sale. So, walk us through all those points, please.

Brian: So, there’s obvious uncertainty in the markets right now with respect to interest rates. And so while I agree that virtually all of the pro formas that we look at for QOF are anticipating some type of cash-out refi to assist with the deferred taxes in 2026, the instability and uncertainty has forced a lot of those fund managers to try to accelerate or at least consider accelerating that cash-out event earlier in order to lock in a better interest rate at a time when they at least know they can.

But there’s an important consideration there. One is that that obviously has an effect on the pro forma, which should be evaluated. But then two, this sort of unseen provision in the regulations that requires OZ investors to treat their investment of cash as if it were not cash, then makes it subject to this whole host of rules that’s governed by the very complicated regulations of Section 707, governing disguised sales.

And essentially, those rules are to prevent early cash-outs by investors that are contributing into QOFs. There’s a general two-year window where any transactions that are taken out within two years of the original contribution are going to be presumed to be part of a disguised sale arrangement. And that requires a very fact-specific analysis, a tax analysis in order to determine whether or not you actually have an issue. But there’s a two-year presumption that if there’s cash going in and cash coming out within two years, it’s a disguised sale.

On the other side of that two-year window, there’s not a presumption. However, there’s still risk factors that should be assessed. So, it’s critically important that OZ sponsors are being very transparent with their investors, engaging the help of their tax professionals to assess any possible disguised sale issues because the consequences cannot be understated if a disguised sale is triggered.

And those consequences essentially look back to the original investment date of the OZ investor and invalidate their contribution and their deferred gain. It may have the possibility of pulling back the income and making it recognized in that year, which would cause amended returns and all sorts of heartburn on the status of their OZ investment. But most importantly, if their deferred gain is not validated, their entire qualifying investment in the QOF, including the ability to take advantage of the 10-year tax-free benefit, is gone.

And now, I’m sort of sounding doom and gloom there, but I can’t underscore it enough that these provisions need to be monitored very closely. And I think that’s the basic premise of the point. And although not all cases will require a retroactive look, some cases might create an inclusion event, and inclusion events have their own set of issues to solve as well. But in either case, it affects the status of the investor’s investment in the QOF as being eligible for the future 10-year benefit.

And that 10-year benefit, as we talked about, is how important it is to the overall tax effectiveness and the economic effectiveness that has to be preserved at all costs. And so as operators are considering these cash-out refis at earlier dates than they had originally anticipated, the two-year rule and the disguised sale rule definitely need to be analyzed by a tax professional. It cannot be said any more discreetly than that. It’s an area that requires a lot of facts and circumstances analysis. It’s one of those roadmaps where it’s not a clear path.

So, my point is just creating awareness around that issue because we’ve seen it…if I’ve seen it once a week, I’ve seen it, you know, two or three times a week over the course of the summer, as interest rates have started to rise. So it’s an area that we’ve paid a lot of attention to, advised a lot of clients on. And we feel like we’re helping to preserve these tax benefits by advising appropriately on that issue.

Jimmy: Yeah, that’s a very important point. By the way, it’s one that I haven’t heard of until we started talking right before we went on here, Brian, this disguised sale rule. I have one technical question. I don’t wanna get too much in the weeds on this particular type. But I did have one technical question regarding the timing.

When does the two-year clock start? If I write a check as an LP into a larger QOF on January 1, let’s say, and then the last investor comes in and writes a check on June 30th, when does that clock start? Does it start ticking for me on January 1 and that other guy on June 30th? Or does the clock not start until the whole thing is closed? Or is the answer to that question too complicated to answer in a few minutes here?

Brian: No, not for me. I’m gonna have to caution myself on not getting too technical because I am a CPA by trade, of course. But the two-year measurement starts with respect to each investor, and it’s unique to each investor. The problem is that when the distributions are made, usually they’re made unilaterally at the same time. So, one investor might be past the two years and one might not be.

But with predominantly all of the OZ structures that we have seen using the indirect structure where a QOF invests into a QOZB and then the QOZB is the one doing the actual development, we can ignore the timing of the funding from the QOF into the QOZB. It’s really the investors themselves that we’re concerned about the timing of their investment.

And so as you know, there’s different time periods that can be stacked on end to end for when the investors come in, when the QOF funds the QOZB, and then the QOZB operating under its working capital safe harbor. But specifically to your question, the two years for the disguised sale measurement starts when the investors contribute to the QOF.

Jimmy: Got it. So my two year starts when I write my check, but somebody else’s might start later. And it’s up to the fund manager to make sure that all of his investors are in the clear, I would imagine is what he should be thinking of when he does an accelerated cash-out refinance. Make sure you’re past that, to your point put simply. But I think overall, I guess you and I would probably both advise, make sure you’re getting some professional help from a serious CPA firm with experience in this regard.

Brian: Definitely.

Jimmy: Let’s talk about…final point we wanna talk about with respect to interest rates rising and I wanted to talk very briefly on a couple of other macro topics. But interest rates rising could also have some impact on capital stacks, changing how they’re composed essentially, changing either the amount of gained dollars versus non-gained dollars or debt-to-equity ratio. What impacts do changes to capital stacks have on some of these QOFs if interest rates lead to some changes there?

Brian: So, as we both know, as you’ve talked about a lot on your show, debt is a critical element that is an attractive tool in the OZ space. And using that leverage is important to the overall capitalization structure of a deal.

If OZ investors were contributing gains into a deal that was maybe on the more thin side of the capitalization, but now with the changing rate environment, the lenders are no longer willing to lend and underwrite on that high of a loan-to-cost or loan-to-value, two things could happen. They could either have the project pulled, which would then create a series of timing issues. But then it could also require additional capital to be funded into the deal.

And if investors have already made their contributions under a 180-day time period that they had to invest, it’s quite possible that they’re gonna be past that window and they might not have other gains. So, they’re either gonna be trying to scramble and liquidate something in order to sell, which in the market right now that may or may not be as readily available as it was six or eight months ago.

But also, if they don’t have any gains and they make just a general contribution, you know, they might end up with a mixed fund investment. And a mixed fund investment is one where you still get to walk through the OZ benefits, but only for the qualified portion.

So, if you still have the same percentage interest in the deal, you’re getting some of your OZ benefit eroded because you have after-tax capital that’s commingled with your pre-tax capital. And so monitoring these changes in the capital stack, attempting to rebalance in the most tax-efficient way possible could create a challenge if there’s no more gains left to go back to the wealth for.

Jimmy: Sure. That makes perfect sense. So, yeah, it’s interesting how interest rate changes have had all these different kind of unintended impacts on Opportunity Zone deal-making and fundraising. But there you have it.

I wanna talk briefly on a couple other macro topics before I let you go. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you about inflation, Brian. Inflation’s at 40-year highs roughly. The last CPI print I think was 8 point something, 8.3%, I can’t remember exactly. It’s been in the eights and nines for the last several months here. Clearly, inflation is a major problem impacting much of the world and in particular the United States we’re talking about right now. What impact has inflation had on Opportunity Zones from where you sit?

Brian: Well, where we sit on advising a lot of sponsors, it’s definitely caused a slowdown this year in deals gaining traction. From a materials cost standpoint, deals that used to underwrite very positively are now…you know, they’ve had a lot of their return eroded because of the material cost. And so then it has a ripple-through effect with how it’s capitalized like we just talked about.

But I would say that, you know, six, seven months ago, in, you know, the springtime of the year, it was a lot different. And we actually saw deals that the funding just stopped. We could not…some clients could not get a GMP contract in place because of all of the contingencies that were being added at the last minute.

And so some of that has started to pick back up over the course of the summer as material costs have stabilized to a degree. We’re starting to see those get re-underwritten with new pro formas, you know, with different material costs now. So, we’re starting to see that again kind of trend positively. But it’s still at a level that’s far below where the previous trend we would have expected it to have taken us through the course of 2022.

So, yeah, I would say still on the low side, although starting to see a tick back up here into the fall. But, yeah, it’s gonna be very interesting to watch, not only the nation, but the world economy in terms of how they manage this because it directly impacts the ability of funds to execute on their plan.

And I guess, anecdotally, I would say though that I’ve had a lot of questions from QOZ sponsors, asking if there are any delays that are allowable under the working capital safe harbor provisions for these types of market disruptions. And you know, there’s the built-in delays from governmental agencies that’s right in the regulations, there’s the disaster relief delays, which we experienced through COVID and the course of the pandemic, but there’s no delays just for general market conditions.

And so one of the other indirect implications is that for deals that were already funded and are now seeing price escalations, they haven’t fully deployed according to their written plan and written schedule, under the working capital safe harbor. And so there is some compression on those timelines as well that’s being felt by funds that are in businesses that are already, you know, in the ground.

Not to mention just the ones that are trying to get in the ground by having a deal that pencils out, which is often becoming challenging now in the current environment. So, a couple of different ripple-through effects there that we are seeing. Although, you know, I still think it’s starting to move a little bit more in the positive direction.

Jimmy: What’s the solution there, the resolution there for those types of projects that are impacted like that, or is there one?

Brian: Patience might be one solution, although that might not be a very practical one. You know, the working capital safe harbor has some implications that I would really like it if we can get some additional letters from Treasury on whether only the equity or we can include debt sources in that time period to maybe extend out the length of time that the working capital safe harbor is live for defining your covered period.

There have been a lot of discussions and literature written where it’s been acknowledged that there is a little ambiguity in that part of the provision. So, people may think they’re working towards a 31-month clock to consume all of their working capital and get the building built and stabilized so that when the safe harbor turns off, they can be protected under the general rules. But there’s other schools of thought that think that you don’t necessarily need to be completion and starting to stabilize by the end of that time period.

So, it’s a little bit of, you know, a question mark on how that’s gonna be viewed. But, you know, as a solution, you know, I think that we’re seeing sponsors be very aggressive in trying to deploy what they have. And I don’t think that necessarily means they’re making, you know, quick decisions or unwise decisions, but they’re finding opportunities where they need to in order to…whether it save costs or make other pivots or actions. But they’re being very nimble as the market is allowing. So, it’s interesting to see that play out according to, you know, a set of facts that might have been different from what they started with.

Jimmy: Yeah, it’s a tough spot to be in. Well, finally, what about the downturn in the equities market? And I should state I’m a big long-term buy-and-hold stock market investor. And about this time last year, I was suggesting, gee, we’re coming up on the end of 2021 and there’s just been this huge run-up in the stock market over the last several years, but in particular, over the last couple of years since we hit that little downturn at the beginning of COVID and then that spike back up.

There were a lot of capital gains that were kind of locked away in the equities markets. And now I’m looking 12 months later, and we’ve had a pretty big drawdown across the broader stock market, the S&P 500, and any other type of index you wanna look at. Pretty much everything is down significantly 15%, 20%, 25% plus across the board, depending on what time frame you’re looking at. But I’m kind of looking at the beginning of this year.

Has that led to any slowdown in activity just the fact that there are likely much fewer capital gains in the marketplace to defer into Opportunity Zone Funds? What have you seen? Have you seen the slowdown?

Brian: Yeah. So we…again, with our viewpoint in Opportunity Zone, we see this from the standpoint of our clients that have exposure in our wealth advisory platform to the securities markets. I think definitely with those declines in the overall market value, you know, we did see some retraction in the amount of gains.

But there’s still a little bit of uncertainty as to whether some of those taxpayers are just not selling stuff that is appreciated because they’re just holding, or whether they will before the end of the year, which has historically been a big time to harvest gains and then deployed into Opportunity Zones. It’s a little bit yet to be determined on the true impact of the availability of gains.

I mean, there’s certainly, you know, long-term holders that still have some amount of appreciation, it just might not be as high as it once was. I think what we’re probably seeing more of is, you know, reinvestment in, you know, lowering your average cost basis, things like that, but less of people that are just selling altogether and recognizing whatever appreciation they have left.

So, you know, it seems to be there’s some patience that’s being endured right now. And I think the other implication of that is that the deal flow and the capitalization is similarly slowing as well because the access of capital is not, you know, as freely mobile as it was 12 months ago.

Now, interestingly, with this proposed legislation that was introduced in April, that would extend the OZ program and add a number of other parts to the incentive, if that gets passed with any sort of timing around the end of the year, and the 15% and the 10% basis step-up provisions become in play again, I do think…again, if it’s retroactive enough to be applicable to 2022, I do think that the end of the calendar year is gonna see an uptick in OZ investing.

We definitely saw it in 2021 when the five-year basis adjustment expired. We definitely saw it in 2019 when the seven-year adjustment expired. So, if the laws change…and this is a big what-if. If the laws change, I think we would see that again in 2022.

Jimmy: No, I think you’re right. And I’m hopeful that does come to fruition, Brian. Well, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you today and getting your insights. Before we go, can you tell our viewers and our listeners where they can go if they wanna learn more about you and CLA?

Brian: Sure. So our external website is www.claconnect.com. And we have an Opportunity Zones landing page there, we have a real estate blog that we contribute to with regularity on OZ topics. And my name will be on both of those pages, so I will be accessible from our external site.

Jimmy: Fantastic. And of course, as always, for our listeners and our viewers, I will have show notes available at the OpportunityDb website. You can find those show notes for today’s episode at opportunitydb.com/podcast. And there we will have links to all of the resources that Brian and I discussed on today’s episode.

And please also be sure to subscribe to us on YouTube or your favorite podcast listening platform to always get the latest episodes from OpportunityDb. Brian, again, thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today.

Brian: Likewise, Jimmy. The pleasure has been all mine. I appreciate everything that you’re doing in the space and I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Jimmy: Thank you.

Brian: Take care.