Renewable Energy Production in Opportunity Zones, with Nick Andrews

Nick Andrews

Can Opportunity Zones be leveraged for biorefinery development and renewable fuel production?

Nick Andrews is founder and CEO of Scottsdale, AZ-based USA BioEnergy, a multi-disciplinary company with experience in real estate development and renewable diesel biofuel production.

Click the play button below to listen to my conversation with Nick.

Episode Highlights

  • How advanced biorefineries work and how Opportunity Zones can improve the economics of biofuel production.
  • The eight critical elements that establish best practices for biorefinery development and fuel production.
  • Some of the challenges of raising Opportunity Zone equity and putting together a capital stack for renewable energy projects.
  • The time frame required from biorefinery construction to fuel delivery.
  • Logistics of advanced biorefinery operations and the amount of fuel delivered each day.
  • Projected revenue per gallon and gross revenue projections.

Featured on This Episode

Industry Spotlight: USA BioEnergy

USA BioEnergy

USA BioEnergy is a sustainability company that is currently developing an advanced biorefinery in an opportunity zone in southern Arkansas that would produce roughly 20 million gallons of advanced renewable second generation diesel fuel annually.

Learn more about USA BioEnergy and Arkansas Renewable Fuels

About the Opportunity Zones Podcast

Hosted by founder Jimmy Atkinson, the Opportunity Zones Podcast features guest interviews from fund managers, advisors, policymakers, tax professionals, and other foremost experts in opportunity zones.

Show Transcript

Jimmy: Welcome to the Opportunity Zones Podcast. I’m your host Jimmy Atkinson. Real estate has thus far been the dominant asset class in the first year of the Opportunity Zones program, but what about renewable energy development? USA BioEnergy is a multidisciplinary company with experience in real estate development, renewable energy technologies, and capital structure.

They are currently developing an advanced biorefinery in an opportunity zone in southern Arkansas that would gasify woody biomass in approximately 20 million gallons of advanced renewable second generation diesel fuel annually. And joining me today on the podcast is USA BioEnergy CEO, Nick Andrews. Nick joins us today from his office in Scottsdale, Arizona. Nick, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today and welcome to the show.

Nick: Thank you Jimmy, and thanks for having me.

Jimmy: Yeah absolutely. So, I gave our listeners a little intro on your company in the intro there, but can you provide us with some more detail. What does USA BioEnergy do and what is an advanced biorefinery exactly? And perhaps you can give us some additional background on your new division, which we’re gonna be speaking quite a bit about on the podcast today, the Arkansas Renewable Energy.

Nick: Oh absolutely, happy to do so. Let me start by getting historical. About 5 years ago in September of 2014 at that time Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus teamed up with the Department of Defense. And they issued about $210 million in grant money, and that grant money went to 3 companies. They each got about $70 million each. One was Fulcrum BioEnergy, Red Rock Biofuels, and Emerald.

And the intent of this grant money was that these companies would create drop-in fuel from renewable resources. And our company USA BioEnergy did not get any grant money, but we paid close attention to those companies and how they were putting together the technology set as we began to evaluate different technology sets that achieve that goal of creating a drop-in fuel from a renewable resource which is very interesting.

Our particular technology uses gasification. Gasification is really incineration without oxygen. It heats it to a very, very high temperature and breaks down the finer molecules. And then the gasifier creates what’s called the syngas, and the syngas then goes through a cleanup process, that cleanup process then goes into what’s called Fischer-Tropsch. And then from there, it puts the molecules in strings, and then those strings enter into a fuel upgrading process where they are cut at the same molecular structure as renewable diesel or ultra-low sulfur jet fuel. So, our primary feedstock for this advanced biorefinery is using woody biomass, and what we’re creating is a drop-in renewable diesel fuel.

To speak to those other companies real quick, Red Rock in Lakeview, Oregon is creating a drop-in fuel. Their primary feedstock is natural gas and woody biomass, and they’re creating a combination of jet fuel, diesel, and naphtha. And Fulcrum is using garbage. In Sierra, Nevada they’re actually taking garbage from the landfill, putting it into what’s called the MRF, which is a separation center, separating out all of the plastics, metals, glass until they get to what’s called the refuse-derived fuel. That refuse-derived fuel goes through the same process, gasification, Fischer-Tropsch, and fuel upgrading to sell that fuel into the jet fuel market.

And then the third company that was rewarded was Emerald and they went more of a first generation. They use fats, oils, and greases to create a biodiesel. So that’s just a little background on how this all started, and who’s in the industry, and what we’re doing differently.

Jimmy: So the sources are different for each of the three companies that you referenced then. And your company is using just woody biomass. What is woody biomass exactly?

Nick: So, woody biomass are the leftovers from sawmills, your chips, your sawdust, your twigs, your slash. In Arkansas, they have these southern yellow pine plantations, that are properly well-managed that qualify for the RSF Certification. That’s one of the reasons why we’re in Arkansas. But in Arkansas they approach these pine plantations the same way that Iowa has approached corn. They line them up in rows, they harvest them every so often, and then they replant. And in Arkansas for every tree that gets harvested, they plant three. So they always have more trees the next season than they had the season before, so it’s really interesting how that happens.

But we’re a sustainability company and so we wanted to work with the southern yellow pine plantations where they’re… And by the way, we work really hard not to use trees that could potentially be used for let’s say lumber. We like to work with the leftovers, the byproducts because it’s all perfect, good feedstock for us, the bark, the twigs, the slash, all of that is very carbonous and it’s woody waste.

We can take woody waste from a landfill. Let’s say landscapers and from around whatever county are taking wood debris and grasses and such to the landfill. We would prefer to not put those items in the landfill. That’s called a green municipal waste. We can process green municipal waste in our system, and create a clean burning fuel. And this fuel burns up to 90% cleaner than traditional fuel.

Jimmy: Well, that’s great. And thanks for the quick crash course in biorefineries. Nick, can we get your background? Where did you come from exactly, and how’d you get to where you are today?

Nick: Well, my mother always told me there was nothing I couldn’t do. So I’ve owned and operated my own real estate brokerage here in Scottsdale, Arizona since 1999. The most agents we ever had at one time was 45. The single largest transaction I was able to complete was a $45 million apartment complex sold in the summer of 2005 that we converted into a condo conversion. In addition to real estate development, we also do crowdfunding. We own Arizona’s only approved interstate equity crowdfunding portal, part of the governor’s job creation initiative. So we help small businesses get properly well positioned to raise money legally. And I became the state’s crowdfunding expert for three years. And it was great, you know, helping these entrepreneurs, coaching them, mentoring them, and then creating jobs and keeping investments within the state of Arizona.

What got me going down this road of renewable energy was kind of an interesting story. I was in Stamps, Arkansas, looking at a gasification system called the arc reformer. And this really, really bright engineer had created a gasification system that had an arc, basically electric heats the biomass at the time of gasification. His primary feedstock is chicken litter. And chicken litter is basically chicken poop on top of either rice hulls or sawdust, and it’s a major problem for the state of Arkansas. And this guy was able to take the chicken litter, gasify it, and out the other side, he was able to get crude oil, water and flammable methane. And I thought this is an incredible opportunity to do something meaningful.

And once I looked at their presentation piece, I realized exactly how much woody biomass and rice hulls and chicken litter and other interesting feedstocks were in the state of Arkansas. And it was at that time, I decided I wanted to develop renewable energy projects in Arkansas. And then we went and built an incredible team to do just that.

Jimmy: Good, good. I’m going to ask you a little bit more about that. But before we dive into what USA BioEnergy is doing, maybe you can just provide our listeners with a little bit of industry context. What is the market for renewable fuel exactly? And maybe you can compare that to traditional fossil-based fuel. And then where does biomass-based diesel fit in?

Nick: So the EPA came out, I’m just gonna go back historically, and stated that they wanted to have 15 billion gallons of ethanol as gasoline blendstock, and so they began to subsidize that industry. And if you look now, we have exactly 15 billion gallons of ethanol in the marketplace because of the subsidies that were offered to the ethanol industry where they’re using corn stover to create ethanol, and ethanol has a high cetane ratio, so it’s good for the performance of the vehicle.

Now, they’ve kind of capped ethanol at 15 billion gallons, but the EPA came out and said they want 36 billion gallons of renewable fuel in the marketplace. The next logical step is using cellulosic biofuel. That’s what we do. Cellulosic is the carbonous woody biomass. There is a portion of the advanced biofuels that are your fats, oils, and greases that create a first generation biofuel. But if you look around the globe, and you were to able, let’s say, process all of the fats, oils, and greases, the most you’d be able to accomplish would be 1% to 2% of our total fuel consumption, so it’s got its limits.

With cellulosic biofuels, which is exactly what we do, there’s a plethora of southern yellow pine, there’s trees from Maine to Oregon that can be harvested and replanted. So we’re in an industry that is demanding…the EPA is requesting 36 billion gallons of drop-in fuel. And at this point in time with ethanol and advanced biofuels, we’re not even halfway there. When you compare traditional fossil-based fuels, we’re really just a drop in the bucket. I mean, there’s so much fuel in the marketplace. When it comes down to how much fuel that we’re producing in the renewable energy sector, it’s a very, very small amount. I mean, it’s definitely less than 10% of total fuel consumption.

So the more that we can use renewable resources to create a cleaner burning fuel, the better it is for our Earth, and it’s great for creating jobs in rural areas. Our chief operations officer, when he does a presentation, he says, “You know, we really do speak to both political parties. If you’re a Democrat, often you’re very much into renewable energy. And if you’re a Republican, chances are you’re into creating jobs in rural areas.” So we’re happy with where we are. We’re excited to be at the very beginning of cellulosic biofuels. The two companies that I mentioned earlier that got the grant money, they’re under construction. They have not completed construction yet. So we’re not a trailblazer, but I always like to say we’re coming in hot.

Jimmy: It sounds like it, yeah. Maybe not a trailblazer, but you’re coming in on, if not the ground floor, maybe the second floor or something like that. And it sounds like there’s still plenty of room to capture some market share in renewable fuel and in cellulosic fuels. But I wanna dive in a little bit more now into what USA BioEnergy is doing exactly. I know, you gave us a little bit of an intro and some history on…and a crash course in biorefinery earlier in the episode already, but can you talk about your model, what it is exactly? Maybe you can talk about your sighting model and how this is kind of a greenfield play for you, how it’s ground-up plant construction. And what makes your model unique?

Nick: Well, you know, it’s a new… Even though these technologies aren’t new… Gasification has been around for a really long time, Fischer-Tropsch has been around. They were using Fischer-Tropsch, the Germans were, in World War II. So these are not new technologies. They have just not been combined in this way before. If it wasn’t for the EPA putting together these RIN credits and low carbon fuel standard credits, it would not make financial sense to take wood and create a clean burning fuel. It just wouldn’t make financial sense.

But it’s interesting, because the credits that we create by creating clean burning fuel, they’re not paid by the government, and they’re not paid by the state. They’re paid by what’s called obligated parties. And obligated parties are big oil companies who are polluters and they are made to buy these carbon offsets as a way to reduce their carbon footprint. And so what we do at USA BioEnergy is we set up these sub companies like we’re doing in Arkansas. Arkansas has projects called Arkansas Renewable Fuels, and the plant that we’re building in Crossett is called the Prosperity Biorefinery.

And because we’re a development company, what we do is we look to achieve eight critical elements in order to make sure that we can get our project to full project funding. And the number one thing that’s probably at the very top of the list is having a fuel purchase contract from a credit rated fuel buyer. And so that’s the first thing we did is we went out and secured a long-term fuel purchase contract with a major truck stock company. And they’ve agreed to buy all the fuel that we can produce, buy all the credits that we’re gonna create, and then move the fuel from Southern Arkansas into California, where they’ll take possession of it.

Part of the reason why we’re selling the fuel to them in California, as opposed to in Arkansas, is because California offers something called the low carbon fuel standard credit, and that is equal to about $2 a gallon. So even though it costs us just under 50 cents a gallon to ship it from Arkansas to Bakersfield, we still earn an extra $1.50 a gallon by selling it into that marketplace.

The second critical point would be making sure that we have the right technology providers, and taking the time and doing the research of which technology set that we know is commercially well proven, that’s fundable, and insurable was the next critical thing that we do. The third critical thing that we do is we get third party independent engineering reports to verify that we have not drank our own Kool-Aid.

From industry experts that evaluate our process model, our heat-mass balance, and just to make sure that the technology is sound, it’s sound in the order that we’ve put it together. And that we’re going to be able to achieve RINs and low carbon fuel standard credits, which is the primary income of an advanced biorefinery. If you look at how the income breaks down, about 25% is the fuel and 75% is the credits that we create, which is kind of interesting, right? We’re in the credit creation business and fuel is our byproduct.

The fourth critical element is making sure that we have enough redundant feedstock supply to support the refinery. And in Southern Arkansas, some of the largest plantations of southern yellow pine, which are managed by some of the country’s largest private owners of plantations happen to be in Arkansas. And so we’re working with pretty much all of them making sure that we have what I refer to as super redundancy. We’re just not gonna run out of southern yellow pine when it comes to our primary feedstock.

The third thing…or excuse me, the fifth thing is making sure we have candidate sites that meet our criteria. And this goes back to our real estate development background. We currently have seven sites from Texarkana to all the way over to Crossett, Arkansas. These locations are all in opportunity zones. They all have rail access. They all have minimum requirements for utilities for an advanced biorefinery. And they’re also all very close proximity to the southern yellow pine plantations. Your largest cost as an advanced biorefinery is your feedstock, and then the delivery of that feedstock to get it to your refinery.

The next item is making sure that the folks that are gonna build it are able to build it on time and it’s going to work. So we’re working with some of the country’s largest EPCs, and EPC is Engineering Procurement and Construction. We also work with folks that do EPCM, which is Engineering Procurement Construction Management. And then we also work with standalone construction companies to one engineer, the process model, procure all of the parts necessary, construct the project, and then they have to stand behind it.

And then the next thing is we…we’re not actually going to operate our own refineries. We’ve hired the world’s best operations company to…known for safety and professionalism, to come in and run the refinery on our behalf. We’re paying them to do what they do best. They have almost no accidents all around the globe for the 300 plus refineries that they’re already operating. And negotiating all of these contracts with all of these providers to make sure that we have all these boxes checked is primarily what we’re doing as the development company.

And then probably the eighth and the last critical item that I will mention here is getting an insurance policy. And we have an insurance policy that is able to cover the…what it does is it guarantees the quality of the fuel and the quantity of the fuel for the life of the debt service. And that’s great, because that protects the lenders payments during the loan period as part of a risk mitigation effort. So identifying and getting clear line of sight on these eight critical elements is what we spend our time doing here at USA BioEnergy.

Jimmy: And let’s talk about your Opportunity Zone Fund now. This is the Opportunity Zones Podcast, so I wanna talk opportunity zones obviously. You’re launching or I think about to launch the Arkansas Opportunity Zone Fund. How much is that fund seeking to raise and how are you sourcing your investors?

Nick: Well, it’s a really good question, Jimmy. We started Arkansas Opportunity Zone Fund for the purpose of us being able to use that fund for all of our advanced biorefineries on a go forward basis over the next 15 years. So when we registered it, we registered the fund size at $5 billion with a minimum investment of $1 million with the intention that we would allow our investors to be able to…our equity investors to defer their capital gain during the life of the investment.

We’re working with a couple of different law firms, a couple of which I met at the Opportunity Zone Expo where I met you. And we’ve had some very interesting conversations with good people. One of the groups that I talked to is Saul. I think that they may be our very top choice for representation. And so we’re still really working through the details of, you know, where do we promote our Opportunity Zone Fund?

You know, we’ve talked about family offices and high-net-worth people. It’s been an interesting learning curve to be honest. I went and met with the Arkansas Teacher Retirement System and I asked them if they’d be interested in investing as an equity participant in our Opportunity Zone Fund, only to find out that they are a nonprofit. And so it didn’t make sense for them to want to deploy capital in the Opportunity Zone Fund. Other than it’s a great investment, it doesn’t really help them.

Jimmy: They can’t take advantage of any of the tax benefits.

Nick: That’s correct. So, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to, you know, do this podcast with you and agreed to is because, you know, I’m interested in learning something new. I’m interested in working with other folks that are like minded that are into renewable energy, specifically investing into opportunities zones. And so I’m hoping to garner some interest from some of your listeners to see if anybody might be interested in investing into an Opportunity Zone Fund that’s specific to renewable energy technologies.

So we’re a little bit of a work in progress on that but, as a real estate developer, I think it’s really a neat opportunity. It’s something that we had not had in the past that can potentially move that needle. And sometimes you just have to move that needle two millimeters to get your capital stack put together. And, you know, with us, as a developer, our first definite purpose is getting the full project funding. Our second coming in is to make sure that we have the lowest cost of capital.

So, you know, we’re excited about what’s possible with our Opportunity Zone Fund, and we’re continuing to explore who, you know, potentially might want to invest in our Opportunity Zone Fund. I’m sure we’ll put on a full-court press and see what’s possible and then look for the best case scenario. But as of today’s podcast, I don’t have anybody lined up to invest in our Opportunity Zone Fund.

We’ve set it up because we knew that we wanted it. And we found seven locations, specifically in the Opportunity Zone Funds, because we thought that was advantageous. And now we’re at a point where we’re garnering equity and debt as we’re moving to get a clear line of sight on our capital stack. And we’re excited about what’s possible with this Opportunity Zone Fund. So that’s what I know.

Jimmy: Well, that’s great. Yeah. And it does offer a cheaper source of capital for you. That’s one of the main benefits of the program, at least from the manager’s perspective, from the capital raising side of things. And hopefully, this podcast will get some listeners calling you up. I hope some of you out there listening take interest in this one and give Nick a call after this show concludes. So Nick, what does the time frame look like exactly for raising the capital and when do you expect the first plant to be operational?

Nick: So it’s a really good question. Advanced biorefineries are really not a small undertaking. It takes four and a half years to develop an advanced biorefinery, from the time that you turn the first shovel until the time you start delivering fuel. There are two ways that we can reduce that time frame. One is to take on a property that’s already permitted and has all the utilities to the site. And we have identified one of those, and it looks very promising. I’ll know more within the next two weeks. Then it’s right down the street from the industrial park that we have a property in, in Crossett, Arkansas. So we’re really excited about Crossett and their economic development team, specifically Mike Smith has done an incredible job of helping our company move expeditiously in the Crossett Industrial Park.

The other thing that’s a possibility is depending on when the capital comes in, if we can order long lead time items that could potentially shorten that time frame by 12 months. I’ll give you an example. These compressors that we use, they’re custom and they take an average of 16 months to build, so it’s better for us to order it now and not order it later, because it can potentially slow down the overall construction. So, so long as we can order some of our long lead time items up front and take down this property that’s already permitted, we can shave off potentially another, I don’t know, 15 months if possible.

So, then when it comes to… And that time frame doesn’t really start until we get to full project funding, which we’re not there yet. We have indication of interest for bonds. We have indication of interest from equity. We feel strongly about a couple of these folks that we’re talking to. I just got off a call right before I joined you here. But again, for us, we want to make sure two things that once we achieve full project funding, that it’s the right funding for us with a group that we can grow with. And that it’s fair when it comes to the total cost of capital. And so we’re looking at these things. We’re getting close, I guess I’ll just leave you with that, Jimmy. We’re getting close, but we’re not quite there yet.

Jimmy: All right, sounds good. I mean, in best case scenario in what year do you expect that plant to be operational, that first plant in Crossett?

Nick: I’d like to say by 2023 we’ll be delivering fuel.

Jimmy: And what does that operation look like exactly? How much fuel will that plant produce each day once it’s up and running?

Nick: Let me describe logistically what this looks like, and then I’ll answer your question. So in an average day, we’re gonna have 100 trucks of wood chips or wood logs coming into our wood yard. And we’re gonna take that…those 100 trucks and process them, and that’s gonna turn into 3 tanker cars of green burning fuel.

So, I guess, I’m just trying to paint the picture of logistically how much activity happens around at an advanced biorefinery. You got trucks coming in. They’re coming in on scales. They get lifted up. They’re dropping all of their woody biomass. It’s all going in on conveyors. Lots of things happening. The fuel is being created. It’s filling up the rail cars, and those rail cars are being loaded up and then moved just far enough down the line. And every week, we have a unit train leaving from Southern Arkansas heading to Southern California. By doing that, we’re using approximately 700,000 tons of wood fiber each day. And we’re creating an average of 23 million gallons of green burning fuel each year. And that’s about 85% renewable diesel and 15% naphtha, which is a gasoline blendstock.

Jimmy: And what types of revenue numbers are you projecting for per plant? You mentioned earlier that fuel is your byproduct in a way, what does your revenue look like per gallon? And maybe you can break that up for us into credits versus actual purchase revenue. And what types of gross revenues are you projecting on a yearly basis?

Nick: Well, let me just keep it simple here and say that if let’s say we’re getting $2 a gallon for the diesel fuel itself, we’d be getting another $2 a gallon for selling it into California. And then we’re gonna achieve a blender credit, which just recently was renewed, that’s a dollar. And then there’s federal RIN credits that are available. So it breaks down to about $6 a gallon in credits and $2 a gallon in fuel sales. So if you take the 23 million gallons, and you times it by the…about $8 a gallon, that’s $184 million in gross revenue annually out of an advanced biorefinery.

Jimmy: Good. So, it’s clearly producing quite a bit of revenue. And that’s just per plant, right? And you have visions of seven of these, right? So, we can multiply that by seven at some point. Is that correct?

Nick: Well, the answer is out of those seven locations, they’re all large enough for two advanced biorefineries. So we have the ability to duplicate this. Just on the sites that we have currently identified, we can we can duplicate this 14 times, which is important because when you think about 23 million gallons of fuel, it’s not that much when it comes to big oil. You know, that’s a mist on the windshield when it comes to how much fuel is being consumed, especially in California. California consumes about 40% of our national fuel consumption.

So with regards to working with the airlines, you know, to come in and tell them, you know, we’ll sell you 23 million gallons annually. They’re kind of like, they’re looking at you going, that’s nice but, you know, the message is that we can duplicate this 7 to 14 times. And then we’ll have a significant…we can make a real splash in reducing carbon and sulfur.

The one thing that’s really interesting about the airlines is they’re under significant pressure to reduce their emissions, and specifically carbon and sulfur. And the fuel that we produce has no sulfur. It’s commonly referred to as ultra-low sulfur, but there’s really none. So by combining our green burning fuel and sustainable aviation jet fuel with traditional fuel up to like a 30/70 blend, or maybe even a 50/50 blend, it would dramatically decrease the emissions out of those airlines which is hugely important. Because as the airline industry grows, they’ve got to figure out ways to keep their emissions down.

And even though we’re only selling renewable diesel today, our intent is over time we’ll begin to sell to the airlines as well. But our fuel buyers are only asking us to create renewable diesel today. But I’ll be on the phone with an airline tomorrow who’s interested in having us develop a refinery for them specifically to sustainable aviation jet fuel.

Jimmy: Good. Yeah, that’s interesting. So, yeah, you’re 23 million gallons per year per plant. If you get up to 14 plants, you know, that takes you well above 300 million gallons per year in production. And then that’s a pretty serious number, much more serious at least than the $23 million number…or 23 million gallon number, excuse me. So, obviously it is producing quite a bit of revenue for your company. But getting back to the opportunity zones context now, the opportunity zones tax benefit is at the end of the day, a capital gains tax benefit that requires an exit. Have you guys identified an exit strategy for the fund yet?

Nick: You know, really the answer is no. I mean, I recognize that the equity investors have to keep their capital in for the full 10 years in order to take full advantage of the program. You know, we’re continuing to develop advanced biorefineries, so we would hope that maybe they would exit out of one and join us in another obviously. But it’s really comes down I think to the, you know, what the investors want. You know, we can learn something new. One of my mottos is a question well worded to the right persons are question half answered. And I really would like to hear from the investors on what they would like to see happen on the exit. And then maybe we could just structure it in a way that meets what their expectations are.

Jimmy: Well, I’ll give you a chance now to let our listeners know where they can go to learn more about you and get in touch with you. So, yeah, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and USA BioEnergy? And feel free to give your phone number or email address if you want to even.

Nick: Thank you, Jimmy. So our website is And my number is 602-909-6677. And one of my mottos is, if you can’t reach me that means you’re not trying.

Jimmy: Good motto. Well, for our listeners out there, I’ll have show notes for this episode on the Opportunity Zones database website. You can find the show notes for this episode at And you’ll find links to all of the resources that Nick and I discussed on today’s show, and I’ll have a link to USA BioEnergy, and I’ll have Nick’s phone number listed there as well if you want to reach out and get in touch with him personally. Nick, that does it for today. Thanks for your time. I really appreciate it and hope to chat with you again soon.

Nick: Thank you for the opportunity, Jimmy

Jimmy: Absolutely.