DSTs And OZs For Advisors, With Louis Reynolds

When a High Net Worth investor triggers a capital gain, there are a few different tax mitigation options available, including the 1031 Exchange, a Delaware Statutory Trust (DST) investment, and Opportunity Zones. But when is each of these options appropriate? And how can advisors place their clients into the appropriate tax mitigating investment products?

Louis Reynolds, CEO of Synergistic Exchange Solutions, joins the show to discuss real estate as an asset class, and when Opportunity Zones or other tax mitigation strategies are right for High Net Worth investors.

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Episode Highlights

  • A general view of real estate as an asset class, and why real estate ownership is so attractive for many High Net Worth investors.
  • The key differences between 1031 Exchanges, DSTs, and Opportunity Zones, and when each vehicle may be a viable option for an investor’s portfolio.
  • Tax advantages to oil and gas structures, and when they can be implemented into a 1031 Exchange.
  • A comparison of the size of the DST and Opportunity Zone marketplaces.
  • The size of the total commercial real estate world: how much transaction volume is occurring each year, by individual investors vs. institutional investors.
  • Why the number of licensed advisors doing DST and OZ deals is so small, and opportunity this presents for industry growth.
  • How advisors are currently selecting DST and Opportunity Zone investment products for their clients.

Today’s Guest: Louis Reynolds, Synergistic Exchange Solutions

Louis Reynolds on the Opportunity Zones Podcast

About The Opportunity Zones Podcast

Hosted by OpportunityDb.com founder Jimmy Atkinson, The Opportunity Zones Podcast features guest interviews from fund managers, advisors, policymakers, tax professionals, and other foremost experts in opportunity zones.

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Show Transcript

Jimmy: Welcome to the “Opportunity Zones Podcast.” I’m your host, Jimmy Atkinson. When are OZs the right investment solution for high-net-worth investors? And how do advisors find OZ funds for their clients? Joining me today to discuss these topics and more is Louis Reynolds, CEO of Synergistic Exchange Solutions.

Louis joins us today from San Diego, California. Louis, it’s great to see you, and welcome to the show.

Louis: That’s great. Thanks for having us, Jimmy. We’re happy to be here.

Jimmy: Yeah, you bet, Louis. We met at the ADISA conference in Orlando a couple months back, and great to have you on the podcast now to discuss OZs and other tax-mitigating investment products. But before we dive into that, I wanted to zoom way out, Louis, and get your 30,000-foot view of real estate in general.

What’s your general investment thesis for this broad asset class or put another way, why is real estate ownership such a great thing?

Louis: Sure, and I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, it is a great thing, and that’s probably the summary. If that’s all I said, we could all go home today right now, right? And I’d really probably take it back to two things with real estate that I go back to. And, you know, maybe a silly way, but if you go back to 1624 when the Dutch purchased Manhattan in New York for $24, that was a pretty good investment.

Jimmy: Maybe the greatest real estate investment ever, right?

Louis: Well, you know, what’s amazing about those numbers, Jimmy, is if you actually run the calculations on them, $24 invested in 1624, if you add up all the real estate in New York, it’s about an 8% return over all those years. And so, you know, it turns out the Dutch made a good investment. If they just would’ve stayed with it, you know, it would’ve been even better.

But, you know, I look at real estate, Jimmy, and I think it’s one of the things that I think a lot of us forget who are, you know, heavily involved in real estate because it’s, you know, what we all do for a living, it’s what we talk about, etc. But I look at real estate and say, “It is easily probably the best investment in the United States today.”

And I say United States because, you know, real estate over time is an incredible investment. I think the Dutch got it right, but also, you know, the reason a friend of mine always jokes with real estate, that it’s one of the few investments that people are willing to die for, and they’ve been dying for it for centuries, if not millennials. And so it’s just one of those great investments. But here in the United States, when you take those tax laws that came into being really roughly, you know, starting with the 1031 tax laws a hundred years ago, starting with depreciation, starting with step-up on death in terms of benefits, which means upfront, in the middle, on the back, and when you die, real estate is the only investment that most of us have available to us that literally has tax advantages all along the way, and maximizing those tax advantages one way or another is an amazing way to save 30% of your capital that either gets peeled off an income and sent to the government or gets peeled off at the end when you sell it and sent to the government.

And if you can avoid that same taxation when you die, it’s just an incredible investment over time. You know, not that it doesn’t have its issues, risks, all the problems, you know, that we all know very well and some we might not know very well but, you know, pound for pound, I truly think it’s probably one of the best investments available to most of us that are just trying to, you know, secure our wealth, and build our wealth, and generate some income, and hopefully leave a little something to our kids along the way.

Jimmy: Yeah, sure. Absolutely, Louis. And, yeah, there’s lots of different options with real estate and, you know, there’s types of properties that are good for conserving capital, types of properties that are good for capital appreciation, more speculative investments, types of properties that are great for generating income as, as you mentioned.

And on top of all of that, like, you mentioned, you know, this country has a more than 100-year history now of incentivizing ownership in real estate all throughout this great country, the United States. So, lots of different tax advantage investment vehicles now exist for ownership in real estate, one of which being the qualified opportunity fund through which investors can access all of the Opportunity Zone tax benefits and create impact in low-income communities across the country where it’s really sorely needed.

Our listeners and our viewers, I’m sure by now, know very well all of the ins and outs of Opportunity Zones and the policy behind it, but comparing Opportunity Zones now to some other types of viable alternatives in terms of tax mitigating strategies, Louis, I wanted to ask you I guess a two-part question.

One, what are some alternatives to Opportunity Zones for investors and their advisors that are seeking tax-advantaged investment solutions? That’s part one. And then part two, when do investors know when OZs are right or maybe another type of product might be better? What are your thoughts there?

Louis: Sure. and I think, you know, the investors that I come in contact with and the investment advisors that I’m in contact with daily and quite frankly the sponsors, too, who produce the real estate programs, whether it’s Opportunity Zones or whether it’s Delaware statutory trust, as we like to call DSTs. The nice thing to me from an investment advisor as well as from an investor standpoint is those two categories, the DSTs and the Opportunity Zones are very different from each other, and they’re very different in two very fundamental ways.

The first way that they’re different is one tends to invest in the more or the most conservative real estate that’s out there generally designed to generate income and generally income will be the primary return that you’re getting with that DST. But on top of that, you hope for some gentle appreciation along the way as well.

And that’s certainly well suited for somebody who’s looking to generate income, doesn’t want a lot of hassle, wants it to be, you know, very simple along the way. I just kind of get a check every month, and I go visit my grandchildren in Florida. You know, it’s a great concept. And Opportunity Zones on the other side, as you mentioned, almost by definition will generate very little income in the first few years because they’re usually, usually doing developmental work.

And so because of that, they tend to be less-income-oriented and much more appreciation-oriented. And because of that too, by definition, you know, 25% of the country is carved off for Opportunity Zones. And those are areas that the government clearly wants to incentivize more capital into those areas to develop it, to build up those areas, to regentrify, to do everything we need to do to get those, those lower performing areas, kind of, up to par.

And so fundamentally it’s a very different type of real estate investment, income versus appreciation, but the other issue too is the tax incentives are very different as well. One works in terms of DSTs, primarily with tax deferral where Ozone is working with a lot of tax relief over that particular investment.

And I think the third thing that I would throw out there that, to me, can be a critical advantage to an Opportunity Zone versus potentially a DST, and that’s the ability that with an Opportunity Zone, you are only investing your gains, not your principal.

And so I think, kind of, the last thing I would tell you about, the comparison between those two categories, Jimmy, is that, as different as they are and because they’re so different in terms of real estate, and tax structures, and tax advantages, they actually make a fairly a very nice complement to each other in the same portfolio.

So, we see a lot of, you know, more sophisticated advisors and sophisticated investors that are actually using a combination of the two to achieve their income, their appreciation, tax deferral, 1031s, etc. And there’s a lot of nice ways you can use those together.

Jimmy: Really good. Lot of good insights there. A lot of good points to consider for investors and advisors. Are there other types of tax-mitigating product types that you think are worth discussing today or did you really want to center this around DSTs and OZs? Are those the two big elephants in the room for capital gains type of tax advantages?

Louis: Right, and I would say that those two categories are clearly, as you said, the two big elephants in the room. There are some smaller categories and one of them that I think is worth mentioning and maybe worth mentioning carefully is on the oil and gas side.

And there are definitely some tax advantages to oil and gas structures. You can sometimes use those in a 1031 approach. You know, oil is, kind of, the hot topic right now just because, you know, we drive down the street and it’s…you know, for me in San Diego, Jimmy, you know, it’s $6.05. You guys in Texas, you know, get the advantage of $4 gas but…

Jimmy: Which is still pretty expensive.

Louis: Yes, absolutely. But I say that because, you know, over the years there have been some specific tax laws and tax incentives written into the oil and gas industry in general. And so I think it’s actually, you know, worth looking at that as a piece of the overall structure of somebody’s own client.

Jimmy: Sure, sure. That’s a good point there as well. But I think primarily for today’s episode, we’ll probably focus on Delaware statutory trusts, which are fractionalized, 1031 exchanges, DSTs versus Opportunity Zones. What are some other considerations for investors when OZs are right versus when DSTs are right? I mean, I guess one big one for me is, and maybe you can, kind of, add onto this if you have any more thoughts, Louis, first of all, the type of gain can render you ineligible for a DST potentially if it’s a non-real estate gain, if it’s a gain from sale of stock, or sale of business, or sale of crypto or other collectibles, OZs are really your best option there because DSTs are limited to like kind exchange, real properties, real estate properties.

Are there any other considerations though, Louis?

Louis: I think that’s a critical one just because it clearly drives the overall numbers and capital into the Opportunity Zone industry. Whereas the DST industry, by definition, is going to be, you know, 95%. You know, somebody’s selling an investment property and they’re rolling over the proceeds to defer that taxation and get a good investment that’s going to pay them income.

On the Opportunity Zone side, it’s exactly what you said. You know, you can sell stock. You can sell artwork. You can sell crypto. You know, you can sell your dog. You can sell just about anything as long as you have a gain in it, and that money can go into an Opportunity Zone. And I do think, you know, it’s worth mentioning again though because it’s such a critical advantage with Opportunity Zones is that only the gains are getting invested, which means that your principal…and usually that’s going to be somewhere depending on obviously what your gains have been.

You know, it could be 50% of your proceeds from the sale of that asset are going to be tax-free because it’s your principal coming back to you. And so from a financial planning standpoint, you can do a lot with that money. You can obviously roll it into more real estate if you want. You can put it into a DST if you want. And the nice thing about that is you’re going to pick up additional depreciation on that principal.

And so there’s a lot of advantages. And it’s why I very much like the holistic approach from a financial planning standpoint to look at everything that an investor has and what they’re trying to achieve. You know, are they trying to achieve income? Are they trying to achieve appreciation? And then what are the tax consequences and how do you maximize that?

And I tell you, you know, Opportunity Zones have only been around really about three-plus years. And because they were so unique in how they were structured, it really gave us, you know, a whole other level of planning and, if you pardon the pun, opportunities that we didn’t have, you know, three years ago. And if you pardon my additional pitch on real estate in general, we also picked up some additional, you know, what the government labeled bonus depreciation, and that’s also very useful in this whole conversation about how do you drive down taxation, how do you drive up returns, how do you drive up income, and hopefully do all that so you can sleep at night.

And so those, I think, are some of the larger, you know, issues with Opportunity Zones as I see it.

Jimmy: No, you’re absolutely right there. So, a few things to consider if I can try to recap best I can here. So, first of all, with either type of investment vehicle, whether it’s a qualified opportunity fund or DST, you have to start with some sort of gain.

If it’s a real estate gain, you really have an option of going one way or the other. If it’s a non-real estate gain, then really OZ investing is really your only option if you want that type of, excuse me, tax-mitigating product. Excuse me again.

And then it, kind of, depends on strategy, right, because DST you’re really getting more stable cash flow. You’re investing into a stabilized property most of the time, and you’re really looking at, I guess, capital preservation, maybe a little bit of appreciation but mostly stable cash flow.

Whereas OZs, the strategy there, because of the way that the policy is adopted, it’s intended to, you know, revitalize areas and build new property or substantially improve existing property. You’re really looking for a capital appreciation more so than cash flow. The cash flow is going to be anything but stable within the first few years at least. And then third and final, you know, the tax benefits kick in at different points in time for DSTs versus 1031s.

DSTs like a 1031, you’re just, kind of, kicking the capital gain deferral down the road as much as you can, and typically the end benefit will pass on to your heirs after death. Whereas, with OZs, you get the full basis step up to fair market value just after 10 years. So, anyways, a lot of different things to consider for investors there. And I’m sure I missed a few of the finer points, but I think broadly overall, those are a few of the main points to consider.

I wanted to paint a picture of how large these two marketplaces are, DSTs versus OZs, and then turn to you, Louis, to step back and get the overall picture of commercial real estate in general. But if I may for a second, I’m just looking at two different sources right now. One is the DI Wire wrote an article back in April.

We’re looking at Q1 numbers for both of these asset classes if you will. Stanger & Company came out with a report for Q1 of 2022, and they reported that DSTs did $2.9 billion in fundraising in Q1 of this year, 2022, which is a pretty good number.

You know, probably on pace for roughly $12 billion in DST fundraising over the course of the year. Now, turning over to Opportunity Zones, I’m looking at a report from Novogradac. They are a firm that surveys a small subset of the overall qualified opportunity fund marketplace on a rolling basis, and they update their numbers every quarter and do a little report every quarter.

For their Q1 report, they reported that nearly $4 billion…$3.97 billion is the exact number, I’m going to round it up to $4 billion. $4 billion was raised by QOFs, that they are tracking in Q1, but they themselves say that the actual number’s likely three to four times larger than that.

So, you know, maybe somewhere in the…I guess that puts us in the $12 to $15 billion range for QOF fundraising and Q1 alone, which is a pretty huge number. So, QOFs, much larger at least I think so according to this data I’m looking at, than DSTs. They’ve overtaken DSTs by a considerable amount over the last few years.

Louis, turning to you, you know, what are your thoughts on that? And then can you also give us a sense of, you know, what the overall commercial real estate market looks like?

Louis: Sure, sure. Absolutely. And I love those numbers too because they’re fascinating to me in that, you know, the Opportunity Zones, as we said, they’ve only been around for about three or four years, but it’s a real testimony to the quality of the structure that they’ve already been able to gather, you know, billions of dollars of investments there. And, you know, you combine that with DSTs, you’re looking at, you know, $25 billion, $30 billion in flow into those two categories alone, which two years ago or three years ago, that number would’ve been $3 billion.

And now it’s $25 billion or $30 billion. And it’s a real testimony that a lot of…you know, pardon me for saying this, but there’s a lot of smart money saying, you know, that’s where I want to put my money because it just makes sense for me and my family. So, you know, I’m fascinated with that growth, and I think it’s what I would call well-deserved. But on the other side of the equation, one of the things that I look at a lot is just the total commercial real estate world.

And generally we’re doing about $300 billion to $400 billion of commercial real estate transactions. And what’s always interested me is that the individual investor is about half of all the commercial real estate investors out there.

So, they’re roughly about $200 billion worth of transactions every year. And as we were saying just with DSTs, you know, last year we did $8 billion. So, if we do the math off of $200 billion, that means about 4% of individuals who own a commercial piece of property are doing a DST or other structured 1031.

The other 96% are either paying the taxes, or they’re going out and buying another piece of property. If they’re going out and buying another piece of property, I don’t have any issue with that. That’s a great thing. They’ve probably been a great property owner manager for their whole life. They’re just doing it again.

Good for them. If they’re paying the taxes on that, that pains me a lot, and I know from my conversations that, you know, 30%, 40%, 50% of investors that are selling their property will just pay the taxes. And the only conclusion I can come to there is they don’t know what the other options are that are out there.

They don’t know about Opportunity Zone. They don’t know about DSTs where they can eliminate some of the things that they really don’t like about owning real estate, but at the same time, maintain the tax benefits, maintain the investments, etc. And I think the other way of saying that, Jimmy, if I was critical at all of our industry, it would be that we need to do a better job of, you know, presenting more ideas and options, pardon me, to individual investors and especially in the entire financial planning package, because for most investors right there, real estate is clearly one of the larger pieces of their investment pie, but there are other aspects too that might have some nice advantages when we put the whole thing together.

And I think that’s why we’re seeing a lot more of the larger brokerage firms of the world. We’ve got now a lot of registered investment advisors that are moving into this arena because there’s so many advantages for their clients. And also, you know, for those advisors too, it gives them the chance to do really, you know, a better, more holistic job for their clients in general as opposed just to working with their stocks and bonds, if you will.

Jimmy: Yep. No, some great insights there. I want to look back at that $200 billion number, again, real quick just to recap. So, about $400 billion of commercial real estate transactions in any given year about I think you said about half splits down between an institutional versus individual investors, but only about…I’m sorry but over 95%, about 96% is done in non-tax advantaged fashion for individual investors, which is interesting to me.

And then kind of turning to the advisors now. And, Louis, I got these numbers from you, the numbers I’m about to spout off here, so you can correct me if I’m wrong and…

Louis: Well, they’ve got to be right then, Jimmy, if you got them from me.

Jimmy: Okay, if I screw them up, you can tell me or you can expound on them a little bit. So, you told me right before we hit the record button here, there’s about 600,000 licensed advisors out there in this country but only about a thousand of them did any DST deals last year. So, think about that, first of all, only 1,000 out of 6,000…

I’m sorry. Only 1,000 out of 600,000 licensed advisors did any DST deals last year. And I know this is an “Opportunity Zones Podcast,” so kind of paint that picture in terms of OZs. We would imagine that probably fewer than that did OZ deals last year just because it’s a newer investment vehicle.

Although as we saw, you know, OZs are overtaking DSTs in terms of volume. But maybe it’s about on par. We’re not quite sure. We don’t have those numbers for OZs, unfortunately. Now, of those 1,000 advisors that did DST deals last year, only 50 of those were responsible for 65% of the total volume.

So, Louis, what do you make of that? What are the other 599,000 advisors in this country doing? Is there a huge opportunity that they’re missing here?

Louis: Right, and I think there’s been… You know, I spent the first half of my career working with financial advisors in mostly more traditional asset classes, the stock and the bonds of the world. And then I spent the last half of my career, the last 20 years working, you know, exclusively on the real estate side.

And I think there’s been a natural bias from financial advisors over time to do more traditional stock and bond world, and they always viewed real estate as the, “Well, you know, that’s for somebody to do on their own or that’s for a real estate agent to get involved with.” But in the last, you know, 20 years and 30 years and even the last 3 or 4 years with Opportunity Zone, as more abilities have come into our equation for financial advisors to find great solutions that are tax advantage, producing income, producing return, producing really very high-end total returns, you know, comparable to what they can get in stocks and certainly bonds, but with better tax advantages, that’s what’s really starting to draw a lot of those people in.

And, you know, I’m glad to see it. You know, it serves us well in the industry, in the real estate industry. It also serves those clients well most importantly. But I would add two interesting issues, at least to me, Jimmy, on top of that. The first is that those numbers that I gave you, the $200 billion that’s done by individual investors in commercial real estate, that excludes single-family homes.

And single-family homes up until five years ago were almost exclusively the domain of the individual investors. I mean, it’s where most individual investors got their start. You know, they had a condo, they rented it out, and then they sold that, and they bought two. They bought a duplex.

And, you know, all of a sudden they got five single-family homes, they have eight single-family homes, etc. You know, I had the great luxury of having my grandfather who loved accumulating a portfolio of single-family homes, and he had his keys lined up in his garage all with a little label on them for the address. And it always fascinated me as a kid that there were all these keys lined up. And so I look at the amount of investors that are out there on the commercial side, single-family residents, but I think there’s one big issue that I think bores a lot of us in this industry but I think it’s still worth repeating.

And that’s that there’s this group of people, we call them the baby boomers, right? They were born between 1960…excuse me, 1945 and 1964, and there’s 75 million of those individuals. And a lot of those individuals have been great real estate investors over the last 10, 20, 30 years. And now they’re 60 years old, or 65, or 75 years old.

And they’re saying to themselves, “Right, what are we going to do with this? We want to sell. You know, I don’t know. What about the taxes? I mean, what are we going to do?” And so, you know, the next 10 to 15 years of all the demographics that are coming together, along with just the nature of real estate Opportunity Zones on top of that bonus appreciation, it’s really given us a lot of tools to really help individual investors one way or another achieve what they’re trying to do.

And that’s, I think, to me, you know, the big picture is a thing that’s so exciting about where we are as an industry right now.

Jimmy: Absolutely, yeah. There’s a lot of interesting positive trends to keep an eye on as the years unfold here in the future. Final question or two for you here, Louis. I want to focus on advisors for the last part of this podcast episode where I know we’re running short on time, so I’ll try to wrap up a little bit soon. For the advisors who are doing tax mitigation strategies for their investors and particularly in terms of real estate investing with DSTs and Opportunity Zone funds, what tools are they using?

How are they doing due diligence on these types of funds? What types of platforms are they using? What kind of insight can you give us into, you know, how advisors select DSTs and Opportunity Zone funds?

Louis: Sure. I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges we’ve had as an industry, Jimmy, and there’s really two issues there. One is that there hasn’t been, you know, over the years really kind of a single source of what’s available on a daily basis in the DST and in the Opportunity Zone world until, you know, recently in the last two or three years.

And the DST world and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Opportunity Zone world moves and can move at a frantic pace, which means if you’re trying to do due diligence on a product, on an investment that is going to be gone in a week or two, that becomes a real challenge for a financial advisor.

And I think just general visibility, in general, is that, you know, all financial advisors are trying to make a really good informed decision on behalf of their investors before they even get to their investors to have them make the ultimate decision. And if you don’t know what’s out there, and it’s tough to drill down into the details of any particular investment, and you have to do that, you know, the old-fashioned way of making a phone call or making phone calls and, you know, waiting through PPMs, that is very laborious and time-consuming.

And so, you know, I was a financial advisor myself and, you know, a number of years ago we created Synergistic Exchange Solutions to do exactly what you’re talking about. Essentially, you know, we receive daily feeds from about 65% of all the sponsors in the industry who send us their information daily: what’s available, how much equity, you know, how much paperwork is in the process, how many reservations they have, what does that product and what does that investment look like in general.

And our side allows advisors and sponsors to sort based on a number of different criteria, because one of the big issues in the DST world, you know, one of those is how much mortgage debt do you have, and you need to replace that as an investor when you make an investment. And so it’s critical for an advisor to be able to look at products and say, “Is there a 55% loan to value, or is there 25% or is it zero or am I looking for 85%?”

And so to be able to look at dozens and dozens of different investments, Opportunity Zones, DSTs, etc., and to be able to sort those quickly and efficiently to make sure that you’re matching as an advisor the best investment available or a combination of those investments available for that particular investor that you’re going be sitting down with.

And that’s what Synergistic Exchange Solutions, what we call SES, does through a platform that we have called Focal Point. And it is designed for sponsors and for advisors only, but it gives those individuals a really good look at the entire industry.

It’s really a snapshot, and that changes every single day because our industry moves so quickly. And I think that’s kind of a critical issue going forward is not only having information available but having a way to sort it and then also one of the things we’ve done at SES is to really standardize that. So, one sponsor is reporting the same way that another sponsor is, so it makes it very easy to compare apples to apples.

And it makes decision-making easier and better for both the advisor as well as the investor. So, that’s the reason why life is getting good in our industry.

Jimmy: No, that’s great, Louis. Yeah, it’s a great tool that you’ve developed at SES. I’ve gotten a chance to get a sneak peek of it, a view behind the curtain as it were. It’s great that you’ve got DSTs lined up with OZ funds on that one platform, and we’ll be sure to link to that in the show notes for today.

Well, Louis, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you today. Our time has run short. I’m going to cut you loose, but before we go, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and Synergistic Exchange Solutions? You can give them the URL for that tool you were just referencing.

Louis: Sure, sure, absolutely. The easy way to find us is ses1031.com. So, ses1031.com. And I think the most important thing to remember, Jimmy, if you’re going to be applying real estate, you can do it like the Dutch and pay, you know, in beads, you know, for $24, you know, that’s the way to do real estate.

Jimmy: That’s the way high returns are oftentimes generating in real estate. Well, no, but there’s some truth to that is you get a return on the buying side at the outset, right? If you overpay for it at the outset, it’s much harder to generate a good return. That’s good advice there, Louis.

Louis: Absolutely, absolutely. But thanks for having us, Jimmy, very much.

Jimmy: Yeah, absolutely. And for our listeners and viewers out there today, we will as always have show notes available at the Opportunity Zone’s database website. You can find those show notes at opportunitydb.com/podcast and there we’ll have links to all the resources that Louis and I discussed on today’s show. And please be sure to subscribe to us on YouTube or your favorite podcast listening platform to always get the latest episodes.

Louis, thanks again.

Louis: Absolutely. Jimmy, thanks so much.